Best Illustrations of Edgar Allan Poe’s THE RAVEN

The Raven is certainly Edgar Allan Poe’s most famous work, and perhaps part of the reason lies in how often it’s been illustrated by awesome artists. From its publication in 1845 to the 21st century, artists have captured and reinterpreted the poem in different styles: from modern to romantic, surreal to macabre, each puts their own spin on the story, adding new meaning and intonation. Looking at the range of interpretations underscores just how influential and important The Raven is as a piece of poetry.

"Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there wondering, fearing" 1875 Edouard Manet illustration of The Raven |

“Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there wondering, fearing,” The Raven, Edouard Manet, 1875.

One of the first notable artists to tackle The Raven was Edouard Manet, 19th-century flâneur, best frenemies with Degas, and modern painter infamous for such works as Le Déjeuner sur l’Herbe and Olympia. Manet was buds with Stéphane Mallarmé and provided four illustrations for Mallarmé’s 1875 translation of The Raven. Manet was admittedly an odd choice. His illustrations are stark, lacking in any sense of sentiment or narrative. They are, in other words, very Manet-esque, and not at all what readers today might expect from The Raven.

In fact, when Gabriel Rossetti, member of the Pre-Raphaelite Brotherhood and inexplicably attractive ladies’ man, got his hands on a copy of Mallarmé and Manet’s The Raven, he hated it. He wrote to Jane Morris, “Manet… certainly must be the greatest and most conceited ass who ever lived. A copy should be bought for every hypochondriacal ward in lunatic asylums. To view it without a guffaw is impossible.”

"Angel Footfalls" 1847 Gabriel Rossetti illustration of The Raven |

“Angel Footfalls,” sketch by Dante Gabriel Rossetti, 1847. Victoria and Albert Museum Rossetti Archives.

Although Rossetti never officially illustrated The Raven, he did sketch scenes from it multiple times. His favorite line appeared to be, “Swung by Seraphim whose foot-falls tinkled on the tufted floor.” Nearly all Rossetti’s sketches for The Raven show angels marching past the narrator as his ornithological nemesis perches atop a bust. It’s no surprise Rossetti was so attracted to the poem: after all, he and many of his PRB brethren built entire careers on portraying tragically romantic, beautiful women like the lost Lenore, apparently agreeing with Poe’s idea that, “the death then of a beautiful woman is unquestionably the most poetical topic in the world.”

"And the silken, sad, uncertain rustling of each purple curtain" 1883 Gustave Doré illustration of The Raven |

“Nevermore,” The Raven, Doré, 1883.

Far more well-known than either Manet or Rossetti’s illustrations are those of Gustave Doré. A symbolist, Doré’s vision of The Raven combined the romanticism of Rossetti with the surreal spiritualism typical of his work. Doré’s illustrations appeared in a lavish, 1883 oversized special folio edition, and number among the poem’s most famous images.

For the US publication of the special folio edition of The Raven, Harper & Brothers announced a competition to illustrate it. This was nothing but a publicity stunt–Doré, one of the most famous artists of the time, was already on board as the illustrator. But a Liverpool artist named James Carling, who happened to be in Chicago that year, decided to enter with a collection of painted illustrations that rival Doré’s. Sadly, he died before they could be published.

"And each separate dying ember wrought its ghost upon the floor" 1883-87 James Carling illustration of The Raven |

“And each separate dying ember wrought its ghost upon the floor,” The Raven, James Carling, 1883-87. Edgar Allan Poe Museum.

Poe was Carling’s favorite writer, and his images channel Poe’s belief that, “The scariest monsters are the ones that lurk within our souls.” They’re macabre and dream-like, turning the narrator’s psyche, rather than the raven, into the central horror of the work. When comparing his own vision of The Raven to that of Doré, Carling said,

Doré’s are beautiful; there is a tranquil loveliness in them unusual to Doré. Mine are stormier, wilder and more weird; they are horrible; I have reproduced mentality and phantasm. Not one of the ideas were ever drawn before… for I have followed [Poe’s] meaning so close as to be merged into his individuality.

Many other artists have taken their hand to illustrating The Raven since then, including early 20th-century illustrator Edmund Dulac and anamorphicist István Orosz.

1912 Edmund Dulac illustration of The Raven |

“The Raven,” The Bells and Other Poems, Edmund Dulac, 1912.

One of the most interesting post-War interpretations is by Italian graphic artist Lorenzo Mattotti, for Lou Reed’s reinterpretation of the poem. Reed described his vision of The Raven as “meant to be heard in the mind.” Even though Mattotti’s background is in comics, his images for The Raven are anything but cartoonish–they’re dark, powerful, with an underlying hint of terror and eroticism introduced by Reed.

With all the excellent illustrations to choose from, what would the ultimate illustrated edition of The Raven look like? Perhaps something like this…

"Ex Libris" 1875 Edouard Manet illustration for The Raven |

“Ex Libris.” The Raven, 1875, Edouard Manet

"Once upon a midnight dreary" 1883-87 James Carling Illustration of The Raven |

“Once upon a midnight dreary,” The Raven, James Carling, 1883-87. Edgar Allan Poe Museum.

Once upon a midnight dreary, while I pondered, weak and weary,
Over many a quaint and curious volume of forgotten lore—
While I nodded, nearly napping, suddenly there came a tapping,
As of some one gently rapping, rapping at my chamber door.
“’Tis some visitor,” I muttered, “tapping at my chamber door—
Only this and nothing more.”

"Sorrow for the lost Lenore" 2003 Lorenzo Mattotti illustration of Lou Reed's The Raven |

“Sorrow for the lost Lenore,” Lou Reed’s The Raven, Lorenzo Mattotti, 2003.

Ah, distinctly I remember it was in the bleak December;
And each separate dying ember wrought its ghost upon the floor.
Eagerly I wished the morrow;—vainly I had sought to borrow
From my books surcease of sorrow—sorrow for the lost Lenore—
For the rare and radiant maiden whom the angels name Lenore—
Nameless here for evermore.

"Entreating entrance at my chamber door" 1883 Gustave Doré illustration of The Raven |

“Entreating entrance at my chamber door,” The Raven, Doré, 1883.

And the silken, sad, uncertain rustling of each purple curtain
Thrilled me—filled me with fantastic terrors never felt before;
So that now, to still the beating of my heart, I stood repeating
“’Tis some visitor entreating entrance at my chamber door—
Some late visitor entreating entrance at my chamber door;—
This it is and nothing more.”

"Darkness there and nothing more" 2006 Ray Price illustration of The Raven |

Image via Ingram Gallery

Presently my soul grew stronger; hesitating then no longer,
“Sir,” said I, “or Madam, truly your forgiveness I implore;
But the fact is I was napping, and so gently you came rapping,
And so faintly you came tapping, tapping at my chamber door,
That I scarce was sure I heard you”—here I opened wide the door;—
Darkness there and nothing more.

"Dreaming dreams no mortal ever dared to dream before" 1883 Gustave Doré illustration of The Raven |

“Dreaming dreams no mortal ever dared to dream before,” The Raven, Doré, 1883.

Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there wondering, fearing,
Doubting, dreaming dreams no mortal ever dared to dream before;
But the silence was unbroken, and the stillness gave no token,
And the only word there spoken was the whispered word, “Lenore?”
This I whispered, and an echo murmured back the word, “Lenore!”—
Merely this and nothing more.

"Soon again I heard the tapping louder than before" 2003 Lorenzo Mattotti illustration of Lou Reed's The Raven |

“Soon again I heard the tapping somewhat louder than before,” Lou Reed’s The Raven, Lorenzo Mattotti, 2003.

Back into the chamber turning, all my soul within me burning,
Soon again I heard a tapping somewhat louder than before.
“Surely,” said I, “surely that is something at my window lattice;
Let me see, then, what thereat is, and this mystery explore—
Let my heart be still a moment and this mystery explore;—
’Tis the wind and nothing more!”

"In there stepped a stately raven." 1882 Odilon Redon illustration of The Raven |

“In there stepped a stately raven,” The Raven, Odilon Redon, 1882.

Open here I flung the shutter, when, with many a flirt and flutter,
In there stepped a stately Raven of the saintly days of yore;
Not the least obeisance made he; not a minute stopped or stayed he;
But, with mien of lord or lady, perched above my chamber door—
Perched upon a bust of Pallas just above my chamber door—
Perched, and sat, and nothing more.

"Tell me what thy lordly name is on the Night’s Plutonian shore" 1883-87 James Carling illustration of The Raven |

“Tell me what thy lordly name is on the Night’s Plutonian shore,” The Raven, Carling, 1883-87.

Then this ebony bird beguiling my sad fancy into smiling,
By the grave and stern decorum of the countenance it wore,
“Though thy crest be shorn and shaven, thou,” I said, “art sure no craven,
Ghastly grim and ancient Raven wandering from the Nightly shore—
Tell me what thy lordly name is on the Night’s Plutonian shore!”
Quoth the Raven “Nevermore.”

"Nevermore" yuumei illustration of The Raven |

“Nevermore,” The Raven, yuumei.

Much I marvelled this ungainly fowl to hear discourse so plainly,
Though its answer little meaning—little relevancy bore;
For we cannot help agreeing that no living human being
Ever yet was blessed with seeing bird above his chamber door—
Bird or beast upon the sculptured bust above his chamber door,
With such name as “Nevermore.”

"Perched and sat and nothing more" 1883 Gustave Doré illustration of The Raven |

“Perched and sat and nothing more,” The Raven, Doré, 1883.

But the Raven, sitting lonely on the placid bust, spoke only
That one word, as if his soul in that one word he did outpour.
Nothing farther then he uttered—not a feather then he fluttered—
Till I scarcely more than muttered “Other friends have flown before—
On the morrow he will leave me, as my Hopes have flown before.”
Then the bird said “Nevermore.”

Startled at the stillness broken by reply so aptly spoken,
“Doubtless,” said I, “what it utters is its only stock and store
Caught from some unhappy master whom unmerciful Disaster
Followed fast and followed faster till his songs one burden bore—
Till the dirges of his Hope that melancholy burden bore
Of ‘Never—nevermore’.”

"Nevermore" 1883-87 James Carling illustration of The Raven |

“Nevermore,” The Raven, Carling. Edgar Allan Poe Museum.

But the Raven still beguiling all my fancy into smiling,
Straight I wheeled a cushioned seat in front of bird, and bust and door;
Then, upon the velvet sinking, I betook myself to linking
Fancy unto fancy, thinking what this ominous bird of yore—
What this grim, ungainly, ghastly, gaunt, and ominous bird of yore
Meant in croaking “Nevermore.”

"With my head at ease reclining" 1875 Edouard Manet illustration of The Raven |

“With my head at ease reclining,” The Raven, Manet, 1875.

This I sat engaged in guessing, but no syllable expressing
To the fowl whose fiery eyes now burned into my bosom’s core;
This and more I sat divining, with my head at ease reclining
On the cushion’s velvet lining that the lamp-light gloated o’er,
But whose velvet-violet lining with the lamp-light gloating o’er,
She shall press, ah, nevermore!

"Wretch, I cried, God hath lent thee" 1883-87 James Carling illustration of The Raven |

“Wretch, I cried, God hath lent thee,” The Raven, Carling, 1883-87. Edgar Allan Poe Museum.

Then, methought, the air grew denser, perfumed from an unseen censer
Swung by Seraphim whose foot-falls tinkled on the tufted floor.
“Wretch,” I cried, “thy God hath lent thee—by these angels he hath sent thee
Respite—respite and nepenthe from thy memories of Lenore;
Quaff, oh quaff this kind nepenthe and forget this lost Lenore!”
Quoth the Raven “Nevermore.”

"Angel footfalls," 1846 Gabriel Rossetti illustration of The Raven |

“Angel Footfalls,” Dante Gabriel Rossetti, 1846.

“Prophet!” said I, “thing of evil!—prophet still, if bird or devil!—
Whether Tempter sent, or whether tempest tossed thee here ashore,
Desolate yet all undaunted, on this desert land enchanted—
On this home by Horror haunted—tell me truly, I implore—
Is there—is there balm in Gilead?—tell me—tell me, I implore!”
Quoth the Raven “Nevermore.”

"Tell this soul with sorrow laden" 1883-87 James Carling illustration of The Raven |

“Tell this soul with sorrow laden,” The Raven, Carling, 1883-87. Edgar Allan Poe Museum.

“Prophet!” said I, “thing of evil!—prophet still, if bird or devil!
By that Heaven that bends above us—by that God we both adore—
Tell this soul with sorrow laden if, within the distant Aidenn,
It shall clasp a sainted maiden whom the angels name Lenore—
Clasp a rare and radiant maiden whom the angels name Lenore.”
Quoth the Raven “Nevermore.”

2003 Lorenzo Mattotti illustration of Lou Reed's The Raven |

“Be that word our sign of parting, bird or fiend,” Lou Reed’s The Raven, Lorenzo Mattotti, 2003.

“Be that word our sign of parting, bird or fiend!” I shrieked, upstarting—
“Get thee back into the tempest and the Night’s Plutonian shore!
Leave no black plume as a token of that lie thy soul hath spoken!
Leave my loneliness unbroken!—quit the bust above my door!
Take thy beak from out my heart, and take thy form from off my door!”
Quoth the Raven “Nevermore.”

"And my soul from out that shadow that lies floating on the floor" 1875 Edouard Manet illustration of The Raven |

“And my soul from out that shadow that lies floating on the floor,” The Raven, Manet, 1875.

And the Raven, never flitting, still is sitting, still is sitting
On the pallid bust of Pallas just above my chamber door;
And his eyes have all the seeming of a demon’s that is dreaming,
And the lamp-light o’er him streaming throws his shadow on the floor;
And my soul from out that shadow that lies floating on the floor
Shall be lifted—nevermore!

Final medallion from Gustave Doré 1883 illustration of The Raven |

The Raven, Doré, 1883.

9 Debut Novels You Might Have Missed Because the World is on Fire

The last nine months or so have been — well, I struggle to put into words what they’ve been. But literary agent Sarah LaPolla did it for me, when she tweeted this:

I enlisted the help of my Book Riot friends to bring to your attention some debut novels you might have missed while we were collectively holding our breath, and scrolling through Twitter — and we took it a little beyond January, because the world continues to burn.

alterationsAlterations by Stephanie Scott (6th Dec 2016)

Amelia Blanco has two passions: fashion, and Ethan Laurenti, the boy from the famous family for whom her parents cook. After her abuelita sends her to New York for an internship, she returns full of confidence, and agrees to help Ethan’s brother, Liam, develop a fashion app. But as Liam and Amelia grow closer, Ethan realises what he’s missing, and Amelia will soon have a choice to make.


idaho emily ruskovichIdaho by Emily Ruskovich (3rd January)

Told in a non-linear narrative, Idaho recounts the lives of a family still reeling from a loss. We meet Wade, his ex-wife Jenny, their two daughters, May and June (yeah, just go with it), and Wade’s new wife, Ann. Jenny is serving a life sentence for the death of May, and June has been missing in action ever since. It’s a mystery with family drama and a lot of heart mixed in. Fair warning: Idaho moves at a relatively slow pace, but the writing is moving and lyrical and the story is compelling enough to keep you reading. Enjoy your journey to the Gem State.

— Kate Krug

midnight without a moonMidnight Without a Moon by Linda Williams Jackson  (3rd January 2017)

The murder of Emmett Till in 1955 after he wolf-whistled at a white woman likely inspired Harper Lee, and now it’s inspired Linda Williams Jackson and her fictional heroine, Rose Lee Carter. Midnight Without a Moon is To Kill a Mockingbird for a new generation of middle graders, and it’s more important now than ever.


the bear and the nightingaleThe Bear and the Nightingale by Katherine Arden (1oth January)

The Bear and the Nightingale begins with a fairy tale told on a cold Russian night around the warmth of an oven’s fire, to a little girl named Vasilisa and her brothers. But some fairy tales can become reality. Full of magic, this is a fun, atmospheric read steeped in Russian folklore. Vasya is impulsive and independent, and you root for her the entire time. If you enjoyed Uprooted by Naomi Novik or The Golem and the Jinni by Helene Wecker, you’ll love this one too.

— Margaret Kingsbury

the futuresThe Futures by Anna Pitoniak (17th January)

I’m a sucker for the “moving-to-the-big-city-after-university” subgenre of literary fiction, so The Futures has been firmly on my to-read list for months. It’s set in 2008 — an ominous time to be a hedge fund manager like Evan. What does it hold for him and Julia, his Yale girlfriend?



after the fallAfter The Fall by Kate Hart (24th January)

That this book hasn’t been getting more discussion is sad and a thing I hope turns around as more readers pick up this debut novel about a small town Arkansas girl trying to navigate complicated relationships and being a victim — then a survivor — of assault. It should be picked up by readers who love Laurie Halse Anderson or Sarah Zarr who love deeply emotional contemporary YA titles.

–Kelly Jensen

The Hour of Daydreamsthe hour of daydreams by Renee Macalino Rutledge (14th March)

“Manolo Lualhati, a respected doctor in the Philippine countryside, believes his wife hides a secret. Prior to their marriage, he spied her wearing wings and flying to the stars with her sisters each evening.” The Hour of Daydreams is a contemporary retelling of a Filippino folktale, and I’ve heard the prose style is amazing.


No One Is Coming to Save Usno one is coming to save us by Stephanie Powell Watts  (4th April)

JJ Ferguson is the Gatsby of this novel, returning to North Carolina with ostentatious wealth and plans to build a mansion and win back his high school sweetheart. But his arrival affects the whole community, bringing up questions about their dreams and expectations and how their lives match up to them


Oolaoola by Brittany Newell (25th April)

Oola is a gorgeously written novel about obsession gone wrong. Leif meets Oola at a party and his fascination quickly turns onto fixation as their relationship progresses. This intense story is more character study than thriller, taking the reader deep into the mind of Leif as he documents Oola’s every move. Under the guise of Newell’s gorgeous writing, you can almost believe Leif’s actions are charming.

— Sophia Khan

Wisdom Is a Double-Edged Sword: Talking with Jay Baron Nicorvo

I have to admit that when The Rumpus asked me if I wanted to interview Jay Baron Nicorvo about his debut novel The Standard Grand (St. Martin’s Press), I thought the synopsis sounded a bit wild: a female Army trucker goes AWOL and joins up with a Vietnam vet who runs a halfway house for a group of “conspiratorial” veterans in a rundown Borscht Belt resort (think Dirty Dancing) in the Catskills. A greedy corporate executive sends his landman, a Mesoamerican lesbian, to exploit the veterans by trying to buy the land they’re on for cheap so the company could turn around and make large profits from drilling. Throw in some violence (mauling, shooting, mysterious death) and a cougar, and we have a year in the lives of this cast of (over forty, it turns out) characters.

At the time, I had just finished my Rumpus interview with Viet Thanh Nguyen about his story collection, The Refugees, which deals with themes of the Vietnam War and the aftermath of war. I’d also been deep into a used copy of American Sniper I found on the shelves of my local bookstore, which, strangely enough, caused me to survey, for the first time, rooftops in my neighborhood to assess whether or not they’d be ideal sniper locations. And, as someone who grew up hearing the same war stories over and over about the Japanese occupation of the Philippines during World War II, as told to me by my parents and maternal grandparents, thoughts of war are often at the forefront of my mind. Interviewing Nicorvo about his book, no matter how wild it seemed, felt like the natural thing to do.

And I’m so glad I did. Nicorvo has a masterful and playful use of language that keeps the story fresh, alive, and immediate. His ability to employ multiple points of view (for both people and animals) enables the reader to get in the hearts and minds of many diverse characters, creating a satisfying and complex layering of emotions and desires. What he captures so elegantly are the struggles of a group of veterans who live in desperate poverty on the margins of the very society that they volunteered to protect while in the service and at war. Veterans, like his female protagonist Antebellum (also known as ‘Bellum’ and ‘Ant’), who look back at their actions during war time and struggle to make a way forward as civilians who have seen far more bloodshed and casualties than the rest of us.

What I enjoyed most about Nicorvo’s novel is his insistence in challenging stereotypes. This is a writer who rejects stereotypes about women, veterans, animals, bodily functions, and even evil. Because he’s constantly pushing up against stereotypes throughout the novel, there’s a sort of ‘swimming upstream’ feeling at times that creates an attraction to, as well as discomfort in, the unusual and the unexpected. For Nicorvo, it’s at this intersection where characters and stories emerge.

We talked over the phone during a power outage on his farm near Battle Creek, Michigan. Even in the darkness, his humility, kindness, and empathy for people, particularly veterans and animals, came through quite clear.


The Rumpus: You introduce many characters in the beginning of the novel, most of whom have several nicknames. I had to pay close attention and refer back often to the cast list provided. But once I got a sense for them as well as their voices I really got into the groove of the novel. I’m curious if you or your editors worried about confusing the reader with so many characters in the beginning?

Jay Baron Nicorvo: I don’t think my editor was ever worried. She knew that it would be a concern for some readers, and she was just trying to keep the pace going quickly. That was one thing that she was really working toward: so long as the pace kept going at a pretty fast clip, the reader will extend some patience.

My favorite novels when I was starting out were the big Russian novels like The Brothers Karamazov, with their ten-page character lists and all the diminutives of Russian in those names. [My wife] Thisbe was also working on a big novel that had a lot of characters in it. The two of us were reading and listening to a lot of the big sweeping novels. We were watching a lot of good serialized dramas like Mad Men and The Wire—shows with big casts of characters. At some point the novel just started to get really big and unwieldy, and every character needed not only his or her own voice, along with a nickname, but some sort of ailment, a language, a region that was his or her own. I was definitely aware of losing some readers but I was trying to keep in mind that the payoff comes for the readers who stick with it.

Rumpus: In As I Lay Dying, Faulkner uses multiple points of view to tell his story. You used a similar technique in your novel. How did you decide on this strategy?

Nicorvo: I didn’t really decide on the strategy. I started with the character first. In the first year and the first hundred pages, I was writing from the point of view of a character who now is not even in the book. You might not even remember the character because she never comes on stage, but it’s the wife of the real estate lawyer, Ellis Baum. Ellis has two kids and a wife who, in her fifties, is an extraordinary ultramarathoner. She had late developing epilepsy and had a lobectomy to correct her epilepsy and the procedure worked to alleviate her epilepsy but it also distorted her experience of time and allowed her to run these ultramarathons and not feel that they were taking forever. It was inspired by a newspaper article that I read.

So I was writing from Ellis’s wife’s point of view for almost a year. It was slow going, and I put her in the Catskills, where Thisbe and I were living at the time. I loved the region and wanted to write about it. And then I read another news article in the New York Times about this guy out in California who had a little place, a house and some outbuildings, on a lot of acreage. He was housing homeless veterans there. And I thought, ‘Wow, that would be neat if this ultramarathoner encountered this place and this situation.’

So then I had to write the proprietor of such a place so I could get into his head. Once I did that, I had to have some vets. The veteran that I knew best was my former sister-in-law, and so I used her biographical information to start that character rolling, and once Bellum came onto the scene she just took over. I had to jettison a whole beginning of the novel and lose that character altogether, but then pulled out bits and pieces, and wound up using parts of that first ultramarathoner’s character to develop Evangelína, who becomes a distance runner.

Rumpus: You really got into the heads of each of these characters. Why did you also give a voice to animals in the book?

Nicorvo: It’s of huge importance to me. Most of us live with animals all around us. I’ve always felt very close to animals. I don’t know if there’s a corollary between growing up poor in this country and having tons of pets but we didn’t have a lot of money and I grew up in a house that had countless cats and dogs, ferrets and cockatiels. My mom had a macaw and snakes. I’ve always wanted to try to know them intimately, and when it comes to representing them in the novel, not to exploit them, not to just use them as a plot point, but to really develop them each as characters. So I give the cougar a backstory with one eye, and a mother who was raised in captivity who helped the cougar eat his siblings when he was a cub. It was important for me to get all of these animals involved, and then when the novel allowed, to really develop each one of them as a character.

Rumpus: Bellum’s character is based on your former sister-in-law who allegedly had an affair while away at war. You’ve stated that your development of characters is an attempt to “try to right them by rewriting them.” Was this a satisfying exercise to rewrite your former sister-in-law through Bellum’s character?

Nicorvo: I think I would be careful to say that it’s helped me to understand her situation. But writing about Bellum didn’t really teach me anything about my brother’s ex-wife because I try to be very careful about the line separating the real people in the world who might inspire me to write about similar people. But in writing for so long about this character that shared some of my brother’s ex-wife’s experiences, I developed a more general sympathy for all veterans, for what they go through. The great privilege and fortune we Americans have in an all-volunteer fighting force. My brothers and I, the three of us, at some point, considered enlisting as young men. I know I did a few times after September 11, and after an arrest at eighteen. I think most men from working class backgrounds do. And it’s not just men anymore; it’s women too. They’re blue collar, they have debts, they don’t have job prospects.

Rumpus: Or education prospects.

Nicorvo: Right. They don’t even know what a scholarship is. I had no idea what a scholarship was until I was mostly through community college.

I haven’t really learned all that much about my former sister-in-law, only to say that whatever happened with her when she was in Iraq and any infidelity that might have happened—they’re kids, first of all, they’re teenagers or in their early twenties. They’re plucked from their loved ones and from everything they know and put in an astoundingly hostile environment and expected to conduct themselves. It’s gonna forge incredible emotional bonds over there. And then to have to come back and reorient and reintegrate into some semblance of civilian life and home life and domestic life? It makes no emotional sense.

What I’ve found is that the military does a phenomenal job of readying our soldiers for conflict. It’s no secret that it’s Pavlovian conditioning, and the military has it down to a science. But they don’t do much in the way of reconditioning for normal civilian life or even military life stateside that doesn’t have conflict forever looming out there. I would like to see our military do a better job reconditioning its soldiers, trying to figure out ways for them to reintegrate into civilian life and domestic life.

Rumpus: Why do you care so much about vets?

Nicorvo: Why do I care so much about vets? [Laughs] I almost want to respond to that by saying, “Why does it seem like so many civilians don’t care about vets?” American society has developed in a way that makes it really easy to not keep our soldiers on the forefront of our minds. To think that there are tens of thousands of fellow Americans conducting wars in far-flung places is a little bit shocking, but because it’s so abstract, it doesn’t really make people care so much. I didn’t really care so much. It was only in spending all that time writing this novel that I came to care. I don’t think you can expect most Americans to do that. They have jobs, families, they’re working hard. But maybe what you can expect most Americans to do is pick up a literary novel, a character-driven novel and immerse themselves in that caring for a week or for a month, however long it takes them to read that book. That’s what I’m hoping my book offers.

Rumpus: So I’m a pretty sensitive eater. Growing up, my sisters used to use that against me. In the middle of a meal, all they had to do was say one gross word and I’d lose my appetite. You evoke the grotesque in this novel, and I found out quickly that this was not a book I could read while eating. What’s your fascination with fluids, bodily functions and foul smells?

Nicorvo: We’re all a bit conditioned to be squeamish. The idea that menstruation or passing gas are embarrassments or cause for embarrassments really bothers me and has ever since I was a kid. I was trying to challenge some of those feelings. It would be nice if we were all more comfortable in our own bodies and weren’t so ashamed of certain bodily functions. I always wanted to somehow represent that. I don’t think they’re represented enough on the page. It’s universal, it’s something we all do, but there is a kind of censorship that happens.

Some readers don’t want to encounter those things on the page, and so there are editors who will try to cut those things back. One battle that I had to fight is the tampon scene—the burying of it and Milton, the owner of the Standard Grande, wanting to use it as bait for a snare. I had to fight to keep that in my novel with my agent and my editor. They both wanted to lose it, and I refused. I joked that I should retitle the novel The Tampon Grand. If it was just a matter of me wanting to gross readers out, I would’ve cut it, but I came to see it as a kind of stand in for the history of patriarchy and what most patriarchies have done to female self-conception and what a lot of women think about their bodies. And how that expresses itself so offensively to us, we in the West, when it comes to things like Sharia law. There are parts of Western culture that are absolutely represented in what we consider extremist ideas. Embarrassment about menstruation is one of them, and so there was that element that was very thematic, to demonstrate to the reader that in some ways, there is not a whole lot of difference between the Midwest and the Middle East.

There’s a lot of violence in the novel, and a lot of blood is spilled, and I didn’t want all of it to be bad. Menstrual blood is life-affirming, and life-giving, and it is a testament to conception and to creation. I wanted that through line there. At the same time, it was a plot point. Wild animals are hypersensitive to pheromones and they do have a sense of when other wild animals are in heat. So Bellum’s period is drawing the cougar. There was this element that was working on so many different layers that I refused to get rid of it.

Rumpus: Can you elaborate on these quotes by two of your characters: Ray, the private contractor, says, “You gotta find a way to keep open to the world, and the people in it. Even the people doing terrible things, maybe them most of all. Because as you know, anyone can do a terrible thing, you put them in a war zone.” And then Bellum echoes this belief later by saying, “You’ve got to find a way to hold onto the qualities that keep us open to the world and the people in it.”

Nicorvo: Wisdom is very hard and well-earned. It comes through trauma and deprivation. If you don’t experience those things, you have a hard time staying open to the world and the people in it. Our current president is a prime example. He’s a person who was born into privilege. I imagine that he did suffer traumas and deprivations, but I don’t think we’re ever going to know them. He certainly hasn’t expressed any of them, and he hasn’t fought wars. This is the problem with privilege—it closes you off emotionally. It curtails empathy, and when that happens, it’s much easier to close yourself off to certain groups and to certain people, to label people who do bad things as ‘evil.’

I don’t really believe in the concept of evil. I think we’re all capable of it. F. Bismarck Rowling, the chief operations officer of IRJ, Inc. is very much a character who is closed off, who is able to compartmentalize, who is able to not sympathize and empathize and stay open to everyone and everything. The terrible conundrum for humanity is that if you remain open to everyone and everything, there is a kind of emotional paralysis. If you empathize too much, you cannot act, which is what I’ve found in my life. And at the other extreme, if you don’t empathize enough, all you do is act. You kind of barrel forward without thinking or feeling. But there’s a spectrum and each of those individual characters expresses qualities of the other side of the spectrum. It’s really hard to be a leader and make decisions if you’re constantly trying to empathize with everybody. It’s a double-edged sword.

Rumpus: Let’s talk about Evangelína, also known as Evy. Where did this character—a gay, female, Mesoamerican landman—come from?

Nicorvo: When I was in between community college and transferring to a four-year college, I sailed in the Regatta del Sol. I’d never been in a sailboat race before. I had an English teacher in community college who was racing from St. Petersburg, Florida to Isla Mujeres in Mexico, the little island off the Yucatan right by Cancun and Cozumel. He invited me to crew, and they didn’t care that I’d never been on a boat before. They weren’t really doing it to win the race; they were more in it for the experience. The race itself was a long story. We almost sank and we passed through a tropical storm. When we got to Isla Mujeres five full days later, I would not get back on that sailboat. So I just stayed there.

I met some young women whose father was the mayor of Isla Mujeres. They showed me around and I stayed in their home in Cancun for a while, lived in the city and made trips to Chichén Itzá. I fell in love with the culture and the people and saw some similarities between the influx of European Spanish and the resistance of the indigenous Yucatec Maya.

I fell in love with Mexico and the culture and came back multiple times. And when I started writing about the big multinational companies, and realizing that there needs to be a person who was gonna come and visit the Standard and make an offer to buy it, I thought, ‘Were there any women landmen?’ The beginning point of inspiration for me is thinking about and working against stereotypes because I think that’s where the drama is, that’s where the interesting characters are, that’s where the stories are. Even before I started writing Evangelína, I thought, ‘What if she were not a white woman? What if she were not a straight white woman? What if she were not a tall, straight white woman?’ I would come down to lunch and say, “Thisbe, you will not believe what I’m doing; I’m writing from the point of view of a Mesoamerican, lesbian landman, and it’s ridiculous.” And she would say it’s not and we would go about eating our lunch.

I tried to be very aware, the whole time I was working on this novel, not to subscribe to the historical tropes of plot that I think we, in a mostly male-dominated culture, resort to, which is like ‘the kidnapped woman.’ I was raised by my mom, who was a single mother, and her sister. I’ve always felt more comfortable around women. The men in my life, at least in the earlier stages, were all men I didn’t trust, for various reasons. And at an early point I knew that they were men that I wanted to grow up not to be. They weren’t role models so much as empty role models. It was only later after I went to community college and then college and then grad school when I just kind of fell in with men, mentors, who let me know that there were good men out there. And there was a way to go about living a life as a husband and a father in a way that wasn’t abusive. I think I’ve always harbored a mistrust of men. It was probably easier for me to slip into a woman’s point of view, and when I was trying to develop the landman’s character, I didn’t want her to be the norm.

Rumpus: Why did you set the final scene of the novel in a simulated Middle Eastern village in the middle of the Mojave Desert?

Nicorvo: I was glaringly aware, throughout the whole writing of the novel, that I didn’t have a war scene. All the war scenes happen in flashbacks because the characters are home. I was afraid of writing a war scene because I didn’t have any firsthand experience with it. But being a writer who acknowledges that fear, I feel like it’s my responsibility to confront it.

In my research, I found out about the National Training Center and the high percentage of troops that train there before shipping out to the Middle East. And then I watched a documentary set there called Full Battle Rattle. It’s an amazing documentary that centers on the people who work there. A lot of them are refugees who come from the Middle East, and they’re paid to be role players there. There are Syrians and Iranians. They come from all over the place. I felt there was an absence of representation of a character who comes on stage who’s from the Middle East, so I wanted to get these things in place.

After I started writing it, it seemed to make perfect sense that it was the place where this novel needed to end up, where Bellum could make the most life-affirming decision about how to reintegrate and reorient and have it not just be about her but about others.

And I loved the idea of being able to put the reader in a situation where the reader is not sure if we are in the Middle East or not. And that uncertainty is shared by Bellum. It’s also an uncertainty that’s one of the hallmarks of PTSD—to be out in the real world where the situation comes to feel unreal and you do not know where you are in time or space.

You can go to Wikimapia and actually see these little fake towns and installations. There are a bunch of tanks stashed out there. I used the website a lot, too, for places in the Middle East when I was referring to different air force bases or forward operating bases. Even though I didn’t have that experience first-hand, these resources gave me very close second-hand experience. I used that information to not just cover up my failings as a writer and the gap in my knowledge, but to amplify them and to make my individual failings somehow benefit the novel.

Rumpus: You’ve mentioned your wife a few times, who’s also a novelist. It seems you have a wonderful collaboration.

Nicorvo: I’m incredibly lucky and fortunate. There are probably plenty of writer relationships that don’t work out when they get too competitive. Thisbe and I have never been through that for whatever reason, maybe because she was already established and had published novels beforehand. When she and I got involved, I was marrying up, not just financially, having been raised poor, but also aesthetically. She’d already published a couple novels and a short story collection so she was farther along in her career. I didn’t really feel like I was in a race with her at all, and I’ve always trusted her as an editor and a reader so it’s been a big help just to have her in house.

Rumpus: Your bio says you have “vulnerable” chickens on your farm. How vulnerable are they? Do you eat them?

Nicorvo: The hardest thing about chickens is keeping them alive. We’ve gotten pretty good. Our chickens are our pets. We have a nine-year-old hen, Beebee. We have a couple eight-year-olds. They haven’t laid eggs in years, but they stay around. Hawks have been a problem for a while, but because Thisbe and I are both home, and are pretty vigilant, we can spot them and usually chase them off before they start dive bombing. But we’ve lost three, in the past six to eight months, to cars on the road. We’ve got ‘chicken crossing’ signs up but people still hit them. Sometimes we can’t help but wonder if it’s not intentional.

I’ve only ever eaten one of our chickens. We’ve had two roosters in our time, and both of them were accidents. And the second rooster we had grew into a tyrant and started really hurting hens. We tried to get rid of him. We were outside of Woodstock, and the animal center there wouldn’t take any more roosters. So I thought, ‘Well, we’re gonna have to get rid of him, and if we’re gonna get rid of him, I’m gonna be the one to kill him because I raised him, and if we’re gonna kill him, we’re gonna eat him. We’re not gonna let him go to waste.’ So I found an old English recipe for Coq Au Vin, and spent a day dressing and killing him and cooking him up. It was a hard meal to eat, but probably the most responsible meal I’ve ever eaten.


This interview was transcribed by Sara Acosta. Consultation on veterans affairs provided by Eric C. Sabadin, Senior Non-Commissioned Officer, US Air Force (Retired).


Author photograph © Thisbe Nissen.

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